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I have decided to remove this entry since so many people seem to have taken it the wrong way. I do still think that it is a fair issue for discussion however. That being said I should probably find a way to express the feelings that were originally in this thread in a less incendiary manner. My apologies - Tom

Originally posted to tomcurry on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:47 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Yeah, like be an apoligst for the Bushies like Tom (none)
    Sad to see you now trying to act like you care tom.
  •  This Diary Is The Real Disgrace (3.70)
    Please take it down because your comments are irrelevant.
  •  Any good TV shows on tonight? (none)
    Just wonderin'...

    There is a cataclysmic void of leadership in the United States. Let us unite and change that.

    by Viktor on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:55:09 PM PDT

  •  And you're doing what, exactly? (3.80)
    Protests alone won't end the war, and Cindy Sheehan would be the first to admit it.

    But then, maybe you think being arrested is easy...

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:55:36 PM PDT

    •  Well, she's already out and blogging... (3.66)
      ...and the $75 fine is hella cheaper than TV ad time. Just saying. You're right that protests alone won't end the war. This sidewalk squatting thing was, while still not focused enough and a bit too generic, a step way up from the march.
      •  Wait a Minute, Though... (3.50)
        ...after sitting on the side of a road in Crawford (pretty alone, initially), through rain, bugs, and the insults of the locals and protesters, Cindy has certainly earned my respect.

        Let's not question that!

        The question of "How best to protest in the US Capitol" should be discussed, but do not denigrate what Ms. Sheehan has done.  The body of work stands, IMHO.

        •  No no no... (none)
          ...I'm just pointing out that she wanted to get arrested and is already out with press coverage virtually no money could buy, so saying "maybe you think getting arrested is easy" is off point. It was a lot easier than many other options for getting coverage for her cause.
          •  Maybe This Guy is a Troll, I Dunno... (none)
            I absolutely think that Cindy is a genius of the Abbie Hoffman ilk.  More than that, she has the courage, the nerve, and the sense of purpose that many of us fail to muster (including me)!  

            There is an immediacy to the attacks on this administration that is warranted in light of the powerful spin machine they have today.  One ponders:  "what the hell does it take to get through to the American people in this day and age?", and, short of resorting to the anarchists handbook, one strains to come up with a good answer.

            You know what a good answer is?  What Cindy's doing.

            I think we agree:  this lady is brilliant.  But I fear that America just wants to hit the snooze button and roll over.

            My question to the diarist remains:  what would he like to see that reflects the urgency of the cause?  Because there are some ex-Weathermen still in prison who still have ideas.  After seeing some of their stuff (okay, I watched one documentary - it was borderline Manson to me, though), I am given pause, and I reflect on just what is civil about some civil disobedience.

            •  bluesee (3.33)
              He IS a troll. Look around. Now I'm starting to wonder about you too.

              In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

              by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:30:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Heh: "Are you now, or have you ever been... (4.00)
                ...someone who's given the benefit of the doubt to someone who may not deserve it?"
              •  YAL... (4.00)
                ...before I commented (my first comment) about this, I went to his page and checked out his other stuff; I looked at some of his comments, and his ratings.  I figured that he was a pissed off guy, but not a troll.

                So I proceeded along the lines I did.  I think my point is (and you can wonder about me all you want) this guy is pretty much one of us, yet he has valid concerns, feels disgust, and has a counterpoint to make about the protests.  OK.  Now, maybe I missed something, but I personally think the 'troll' epithet should be cast at those idiots who say things to purposefully cause trouble.  I did not get that feeling, here.

                Of course, now I wonder.  Personally I prefer dialogue to recipes in a case like this.  The reason is, is because I don't like the stifling of opinion.  This guy is not a mold from the Rush camp.  He may be misguided, but Jesu Cristo, do you think that troll-rating, recipe-posting, and epithet-hurling is the Way?

                My personal answer to him was a simple:  "you don't provide an alternative.  What would you perfer to do/see/hear?"  He hasn't answered that, and I think he is doing a little growing up today.  In the future I think he will be a little more considerate when he posts an article.  Maybe not.

                But some people's responses to this are driving him to a GBCW article.  I think that is the wrong approach, but I will entertain your rationale for the troll-rating behaviour.  Tell me, why is this article a troll?

                •  Have you noticed (4.00)
                  That only bobb cobb (well known troll) rates up your comments on this thread.

                  That should tell you something.

                  In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                  by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:55:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well... (none)
                    I have noticed that he does...

                    I'll be honest, I'm starting to think this guy tomcurry might be a little dishonest in his thinking:  not a troll,  just misguided and angry.  He's taken this position, which is fine in and of itself, but he is not supportive, and there is an immaturity in his responses that indicates a confusion in his thought process.

                    Can a person be driven to trolldom?  Let's find out!

                    For the record, I've gotten 1's from good people, too.  At least I think they're good.  I can't account for other people, lib...

                  •  The trolls are operating in small groups (4.00)
                    and giving each other 4.0.  Check who recommended
                    this diary.
                  •  I note that steve4clark is now also. (3.00)
                    That only bobb cobb (well known troll) rates up your comments on this thread.

                     And that does tell me something.

                    "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

                    by colleen on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 08:08:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I'll tell you why, (none)
                  This diarist implys that what Cindy Sheehan does is a fuckin joke, but hey it's not enough that the lady had to lose her damn son for this joke. eh. It's disrespectful to start with. And it in no way acknowledges all the days she sat in the blazing sun managing to do what this entire party has not, full media coverage on an issue that had become monotone to the general public. If your going to write a diary slamming this lady's efforts do it respectfully and provide a link to the facts you've seen on CNN and you might get a better response.
                  And as for Bob Cobb, you don't deserve an ounce of respect when you go around calling people Nazi's.
                  •  I'm not taking sides (none)
                    I have no links to facts.  But I frequent a slightly right-of-center-leaning message board in my hometown in central Indiana.  And someone posted something about Cindy Sheehan not looking like a grieving mother today when she was arrested.  The person wondered why she was smiling.  

                    I'm just putting this out there.  Do I think the person was right to question Cindy Sheehan's demeanor? Nope.   I think it's a bunch of hooey.  But Tom Curry isn't the only one disturbed by the photograph from today.  

                    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                    by Matt in AA on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:11:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I understand what your saying (none)
                      but it's a simplistic way of seeing it, something right wing sides often fall prey to. Can you imagine a mom, never dealing with the media to suddenly having the media follow her day after day. She's gone through several evolutions since her first day of protest. I'm sure that moment was one of pride, surrounded by friends and supporters , and maybe even a nervous tension that she really was going all the way this time and getting arrested. Remember her thinking all through the Crawford mess that any day they'd come and arrest her? Remember when that lunatic came bulldozing in over the crosses? Can you imagine that each stage has brought her tension, laughter, pride, sadness and despair and yet her she is, not going away, day in , day out. Why do you think so many people are proud of her. I'm honestly surprised we aren't seeing pictures with her in the porta pottie considering how much damage she's done. But to just look at a photo and decide it's a game is so shallow.
                      •  I totally agree with you. . . (4.00)
                        It is shallow.  It's ridiculous.  And I cannot imagine what she's gone through.   She's got my respect, which is a lot more than Republicans and some Democrats have from me right now.    

                        I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                        by Matt in AA on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:29:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  troll or not (none)
              genius is a bit over the top.
  •  and when you say they should do something (none)
    just what is it they should do?  go ahead and give advice
  •  Any Good Recipes? (4.00)

    Thoughts from Connecticut -

    by ctsteve on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:57:42 PM PDT

  •  He's protesting... (4.00)
    ...the protesting!  Maybe he's a self-hating hippie!  ;-)
  •  do something? what? (none)
  •  Oh sod off (none)

    "Bush should've hired Fed-Ex. They know when it has to be there overnight."

    by MissAnneThrope on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:59:37 PM PDT

  •  oh no! (4.00)
    I will say in general, not to the diarist in particular.... permits are a funny thing.

    When you get them, the signatory takes responsibility for a whole group of people, and they don't control who will be there acting in the name of their permit.

    There is nothing wrong with using a right of public assembly to go... yes, you risk arrest, but it's not like they have to arrest you, either.

    but now to the diarist, I suspect you know something about patting yourself on the back, I'll give you that.

  •  this is one of the worst diaries (4.00)
    i've ever read. wow, really stupid. Uhh, dude, it's now a media age. The point of resistance these days is press exposure. Comparing this to the 60's is dumb.

    Furthermore, "go out and do something" is what the anti-war movement should do? I see that your great dismay at having to head home instead of protesting excuses you from that very call. And apparently it also gives you the right to talk nonsense trash about those who are doing something.

    All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

    by SeanF on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:59:58 PM PDT

  •  Self righteous and arrogant (3.53)
    Right. Those still in DC are.

    And you sitting at your computer criticizing them for their methods.

    Irony worth a chuckle.

    No more than that.

  •  since winter is steadily approaching (3.78)
    here's some festive swedish comfort food:

    Gloeg:  Mix red and white wine together (maybe a little more red) and slice up one orange and one lemon and heat with a few cinnamon sticks, and cardomon pod (optional a few raisins)  If you want to you can sweeten a little.  I usually heat it up earlier, then turn it off to let the flavors blend, and heat again before serving.  This recipe is very forgiving if you can't find all the items.

    Swedish meatballs: This is a half recipe, which is usually what I make and has plenty left over. If you don't have refrigerator space and are just having about 6 total,
    you could half it again.  Also you can alter proportions of beef and pork if needed.  Try to get meat with less fat.  Because of the pork you want to be careful about contamination of surfaces, etc.

    1 1/2 cups bread crumbs
    1 1/2 lbs. ground pork
    2 lbs ground beef
    2 cups milk (or less)
    1 egg
    1/2 onion fried light brown
    salt and pepper

    Basically, mix together with your hands, form balls and brown, turning sides.  When browned, transfer or add enough water to deglaze pan (a cup or so) and simmer another 20 min.

    serve with boiled potatoes, pickled beets, kidney beans and pickled herring. avoid lutefisk as if your life depended on it.

    oh, and this diarist's whinging is a disgrace.

    crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

    by wu ming on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:03:54 PM PDT

    •  I love IKEA's Swedish meatballs. (3.40)
      I don't have any troll recipes to offer, but... instead of that, how about this funny anecdote since there's no open thread:

      The local CBS news just did their "upcoming segments" brief right before they cut to commercial, but their captions got mixed up.  Onscreen was footage of Lynndie England, but the caption read "Strange New Dog Disease"

      Visit and follow every 2006 Senate race.

      by AnthonySF on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:18:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ikea's are like rubber (3.00)
        trust me, make these yourself, and just buy the lingonberry jam at ikea, and you'll never eat them again. of course you'll also probably gain 20 pounds, but you'll be happy and fat.

        crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

        by wu ming on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:43:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  hmmm (4.00)
      apparently bobb cobb is norwegian.

      crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

      by wu ming on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:44:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Compelled to Recommend (3.21)
    I think we need dialogue on this, and I applaud this guy's efforts to provide a foil to our self-congratulatory "us-fest".

    It's because I want the protest to 'keep it real'; there is no denying that there are elements of fodder for the arguments against the protests in the actions of the protesters themselves.

    So, no, don't take this post down, please.

    Here is my impression:  the poster is probably sincere and not a troll, just a person who is genuinely disheartened by what he witnessed.  Yah, bile spilt over into his words and decorum was perhaps thrown to the winds.  In the past I have expressed anger at some posters who start out with "No disrespect, but..." and then proceed to trot out the GOP party line, but this poster is instead looking for something more; perhaps there are sour grapes, but I think it is moreso the result of frustration at our ability to organize.

    My impression continues:  I think we 'know the routine' so well that these events seem scripted, and by losing their spontenaiety they lose the force that chaos brings:  the fear that mayhem and "Real" public rioting, mass demonstrations, and shouts of anarchy would bring to a government.

    We had that much more in the 60's, IMHO.  Real fear-inspiring stuff!  This time its a case of 'been there, done that'.

    I understand the writers' frustration, but I don't have an answer.  These are life-and-death issues, and the light-heartedness we express may be construed as frivolity in the face of such awesome events.

    Perhaps this is the only face of protest that he would agree with?

    I don't know, since he doesn't speak of what he would prefer.

    But, kosians, I suggest that the proper response is to engage him, not dismiss him.  Even if you disagree with him, as I do.

    I suppose I'm risking getting a "2".  So be it.

    I challenge the poster to provide 'what he would rather see' as an adjunct to his universal dismissal and disgust.  Then perhaps this would seem less trollish.

    •  I recommended for the exact same reason (4.00)
      I don't agree with the diarist's view that the movement is a sham, but any discussion on how to more effectively protest is welcomed, IMO.

      Specifically, the point about refusing to obtain a permit is flawed.  Not getting a permit is itself a form of protest.  In an earlier diary's comments, someone likened today to the scripted Rosa Parks event, which I too see.  There needs to be a catalyst to a bigger and stronger movement.  Let's not forget that getting the mass media to pay attention is still an uphill battle.

  •  ns (4.00)
    i somewhat concur.

    i've been bothered by the party atmosphere at some of these marches.

    this isn't that trollish, folks... chill.

    •  I agree with you (4.00)
      I've supported Cindy Sheehan from the beginning. I attended the MoveOn candlelight vigil last month and the march this Saturday. But the footage of her being carried away by the police with a big smile on her face made me think of a coach being carried around the field by his players after winning the championship game.  What started out as a grieving mother staging a serious protest and demanding accountability now looks like a big celebration.  It's funny that the people who were bitching about those of us who are not comfortable with the large role ANSWER plays in the anti-war movement and telling us we need to be open-minded about groups we dont' agree with 100% are now jumping all over this guy for writing something that doesn't match their own views 100%.  
  •  Recipe for hard boiled egg (4.00)
    Boil an egg in water for 10 minutes.  Remove the shell by peeling it off.  Then eat.

    When you couldn't get a real journalism job, there's Fox News.

    by The Truffle on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:07:08 PM PDT

  •  Disgrace is relative (3.40)
    You sound like all those fools from the fractured left that insist we have to suffer and deny ourselves in order to be good socialists, communists, progressives etc.  You're passe, lost in some vision of activism that never was.  The fact is  you have to survive another day to fight another day.  That means you have to reproduce yourself on a daily basis, whatever it takes.    

    You are my other self.

    by in lakish on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:07:09 PM PDT

  •  Are we sheep now? (3.83)
    Tom has an opinion and because it doesn't jive with the rest of us we slam him? How about the fact that if they were offered a permit and refused it then that is like a Rove tactic? Personally, I would like to see us fight in a more dirty way because so far much of the fighting isn't working.

    That said, I commend Tom for making his views known.

    I did a blog with the title "the left need to shut up" it was simply about taking action. I was attacked by some who never even read the blog. That is sheep and when we become what "the right" is then we are in big trouble. We complain that everything isn't black and white and then when somebody has an opinion outside of the norm they are attacked?

    How about some constructive criticism? Or have we lost that too?

    Many complained about the protest in many ways yesterday. I tried to stay positive and then it became too painful to watch, it really does show our flaws. We are not organized like the right-wing attack machine.

    I am very grateful for Cindy I wish there were more!

    •  ns (4.00)
      I agree, the quick trigger on "troll recipe mode" from some of the posters here is quite lame.

      If becoming sheep is the way to win, count me out.

      •  This whole troll thing is way out of hand (4.00)
        It's becoming apparent if you don't goosestep to the same tune you are a troll, if you recommend a diary because it presents a point of view that should be discussed?  You are a troll.

        The whole recipe thing is unproductive, in my opinion anyway.

        I was under the mistaken impression that this place was about freedom of speech, it's only about freedom of certain speech.  It makes it no different than most of the sites many of you complain about.  

        •  Explanation for my troll-ratings (4.00)
          I troll-rated bobb cobb because he was delivering vicious, foul-mouthed ad hominems, and I troll-rated tomcurry because he is spreading falsehoods to discredit Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement.  Neither of these things belong on DailyKos.  I have no problem with plain old disagreement.
    •  I've got masochism fatigue (4.00)
      Gee, let's all beat up on ourselves after having the most successful march since the beginning of the Iraq war.  One that made the right-wing take notice, since each speaker yesterday at the pro-war rally mentioned the march against war -- every last damn speaker, including felonious G Gordon "Rat eater" Liddy.

      For God's sake, I will never understand the desire of some people to kick ourselves when we're UP.  There's valid criticism and the right to express ourselves, and then there's overkill.

      As of today, it became cannibalistic overkill. IMO of course.

      "Bush should've hired Fed-Ex. They know when it has to be there overnight."

      by MissAnneThrope on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:12:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Considering the two prewar marches... (4.00)
        ...did nothing to stop the war in any way, shape, or form, it's actually not that hard to have the most successful one since those two. I mean, why rank degrees of failure? What's the point?

        The majority of Democrats - elected and not -- ran away from that march, independents were blissfully unaware (thank God), and the right-wing barely took notice at all except to use it as a profitable foil.  

        We're not "up," we're down, and some people are clinging to the grass refusing to get up. Nothing came of the march except a DC Mall primal scream session for some Liberals who could afford it.

        Today's action at the WH did more than the entire march weekend put together. Why? It was small, it was focused, it was media-friendly, it was undertaken by someone who was directly effected. Let's wisen up.

        •  You're mistaken (4.00)
          Respectfully, I believe you're wrong. Anytime we do anything that causes the wingers to have a violent reaction and overwhelming need to try and discredit us, that's a sign we did something right.

          Beyond that, what the march did for many was provide a sense of empowerment from which to build.  In BushLand, positive visceral group experience are in extremly short supply.  Anything that brings hope and energy to fight another day in the face of the neverending madness and exhausting reality of living under this administration is a good thing.

          But, sure, go ahead and trample that hope, extinguish the excitement some people felt at marching for the first time, their first literal steps towards remembering that it is We the People. Forget how much good can be accomplished just from the power they felt.


          "Bush should've hired Fed-Ex. They know when it has to be there overnight."

          by MissAnneThrope on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 04:22:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Easy German Goulash (3.78)
    Great meal to serve a large crowd, though it takes a while to prepare . . .

    2 pounds of beef, shoulder or breast
    2 big onions, diced
    4 table spoons olive oil
    1 tablespoon mixed dried herbs like thyme, rosemary and marjoram
    2 tea spoons paprika
    2 big carrots, diced
    4 potatoes diced
    1 can peeled tomatoes
    1 teaspoon garlic powder
    1/2 bottle dry red wine
    salt, pepper

    Heat olive oil in a casserole, add meat and roast until brown , add onion and heat until transparence. Then add carrots, potatoes and herbs and stir for a few minutes then add red wine, tomatoes and the spices and simmer for about 2-3 hours. Add some water if necessary. to be served with dumplings or noodles.

  •  There are arrangements in advance (none)
    someone posted that it is about media exposure. This is to stop violence, such as what happened in Chicago '68.

    I had read that often the arrangers of the protest will work with police on what "illegal acts" will be committed  and arrange for a certain amount of "publicity" arrests to guarantee news exposure to promote the cause.

    Who woulda thunk protesting is an established business.

  •  Bull crap (3.72)
    The poster is saying the entire anti-war movement is a disgrace, despite claiming to be part of it.  Why's he part of it, if it's a disgrace?

    He's making unsubstantiated claims -- saying they'd been offered a permit and refused it, and they pre-arranged arrest with the cops.  He knows this how?  Any links?  Nope.  I think he's just making this stuff up.

    The focus on Cindy and the parroting of the right-wing talking points that she's just in it for herself kind of confirms it for me.

    This guy just posted this to try to weaken the movement.  I think far too often Kossacks, in their earnest urge to appreciate all views, let this stuff pass as ordinary dissent.

  •  People here recently have made (3.70)
    some good diaries on ideas about how such rallies should be organized and focused.  Sadly, this one is 99% invective.

    There is a cataclysmic void of leadership in the United States. Let us unite and change that.

    by Viktor on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:11:25 PM PDT

  •  Balsamic Vinaigrette (3.81)
    2 Tbsp. Balsamic vinegar (it's better if you use the good stuff)
    1 Tbsp. sherry vinegar (try to get the Spanish stuff)
    1 Tbs. fine mustard (you may use dijon, or I like herbed)
    1 tsp maple syrup
    1 clove garlic
    Salt and pepper to taste
    Put all into a jar with a tight lid.  Shake it up, baby!  Then, add:
    Either enough high-quality extra virgin olive oil to double the amount, or a bit more if you like it a bit less tart.  Shake it up again, and serve.

    This is one of the best balsamic vinaigrettes I've ever consumed.  Enjoy!

    "Force always attracts those of low morality." -- Albert Einstein

    by eyeswideopen on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:12:02 PM PDT

  •  My Diary: (3.80)
    The Protest Diary to The Anti-War Movemnet Has Been a Disgrace..

    I was sitting at my computer tonight and I saw this post from Tom Curry protesting the AntiWar movement Protest.  It was so false!!  It was such a put on!! He KNEW he was posting on a very visible site!! He TOOK ADVANTAGE of the media attention by posting this  diary!!  

    What a mockery of blogging!!   When I first started reading the blog, I was envisioning a REAL anti-anti war movement diary..But this is all just for show!! Its a pre-arranged sham of a diary!!

    Grr!! spit spit!! Where is Matt Drudge's warm armpit when I need it!! wahhh!!

    Tom Curry- FUCK YOU!!!!!

  •  This diary doesn't even deserve a real recipe (4.00)

    Open package
    Dump macaroni into microwave safe bowl
    Add water as desired, depending on how watery you want the cheese.  Not more than just to the top of the pasta, though.
    Microwave for a couple minutes
    Open package of cheese powder
    Add cheese powder
    Enjoy with a little pepper

    "It's time to come home, America"--Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV), September 13, 2005

    by Raybin on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:14:49 PM PDT

    •  Crunchy Ice Polonaise (4.00)
      Find some ice trays.
      Pour water in all sections.
      Place trays in freezer.
      Chill 4-8 hours and enjoy.

      This is the famous Polish recipe we forgot.  Sigh.  We always forget Poland.

      Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

      by madhaus on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 09:48:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  UNITY PEOPLE!!! (none)
    Can everybody please stop the petty bickering! We are all on the same fucking side. All this fighting amongst ourselves is getting old.

    This is what happens when troops are allowed to sit around with no enemy to fight. They get restless and start turning on each other.

    We need some leadership to put all this energy to work!

    •  riiiiiight (3.33)
      We're all on the same side, even the warmonger trolls.

      In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

      by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:35:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wtf? (none)
        I can see how you'd disagree with Tom, but "warmonger?"  Really?  Did you even read his post?  
      •  Good Lord (4.00)
        Yes, "yet another liberal". If you're a contributor to this site, you're on the same side as everybody else here. I'd like to see a percentage of Kos contributors who actually support the Iraq War. I'd venture to guess it were close to zero percent, if not absolutely nil.

        The remark about unity was as much directed at Tom as somebody like you. What all these people bitching then counterbitching are missing is that 100,000+ people showed up in Washington DC, plus thousands more worldwide, to protest this war. And all we can do is sit here and talk shit to each other?

        We need UNITY and LEADERSHIP so we can put this angst and wasted energy to use.  

    •  yawn (3.14)
      i suggest you go find unity with the diarist in private, thanks.

      Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

      by SonofFunk on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:43:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks (none)
        Thanks for illustrating the exact attitude I was talking about. Why did you even find it necessary to open your mouth? I'm talking about unity amongst the people on this site. We're all liberals right? We can't help but snipe at each other and get into pissing contests over nothing.
        •  we're all liberals (none)
          oooookay then.

          if someone posts on dK they must be liberal. and not a troll. yep.

          Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

          by SonofFunk on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:11:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow (4.00)
            Just because the guy posted something you don't agree with doesn't make him "a troll". Go through his prior posts and comments. Nothing to suggest his post was disingenuous. Everybody needs to calm down.

            Are we stooping to the level of our opponents? We can't handle a little dissention within our ranks without resorting to exiling the offending party?

            If you actually read what the guy says, it is not "prowar" and is far from support for Bush. It might be an immature view in the eyes of many, but not warranting of the insanity of some our your responses.

            So what? You think I'm a troll too? Then fuck you. If this is what we've come to, then we're all in some real trouble.

            •  calm down bloogie (3.25)
              you know, for someone championing for unity on the left you seem to be trying really hard to pick a fight with me. well, i'm not insulted. just bored. thanks anyway.

              Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

              by SonofFunk on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:34:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  yo dude (3.14)
              There is ample evidence that this is a troll diary and that all of his friends are attempting to defend him.

              Dude, give me a break really.

              Here is but one sentence (smear) from the diary:

              Watching the footage of what transpired made me sick. This "civil resistance" was some arrogant and self-ingratiating act, a charade, a game.

              Is that something you want to defend? If so, I guess you are on their team. Or maybe you just aren't thinking much. Only you and God know the truth.

              In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

              by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:42:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  God? (3.33)
                You sound like the secret police. Quit your obsession with "trolls" and sniffing out traitors. Many a movement has been derailed by that thinking.

                I'm not tomcurry's "friend" as this is the first thing I've ever read from him. The guy's entitled to his opinion. I'm not defending anything. We're all on the same "team" here. If you could see that, then you'd be that much better off.

                "Only God and you know the truth". Really you sound like the secret police...scary.

                •  What took you so long? (3.00)
                  It took you an hour an a half to finally craft your reply to me.

                  No, not everybody that posts on dkos is on the same "team" (obviously).

                  In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                  by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 08:41:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Two factors... (none)
                    ...well, I'm not just sitting at my computer waiting to respond. Second, there's a giant fucking thunderstorm in Sacramento right now which cut my power in the middle of my last response. Had to run an error check, then logged back on to start fresh.

                    And yes, most everyone that posts here is essentially "liberal". Please remember who our political opponents actually are. The leftwing needs to stick together and agree to disagree about certain things. What we can all agree on is that we want to see this war come to an end sooner rather than later and that Bush and Co. have no idea when that might be...

                    •  In agreement (4.00)
                      However, you should realize that several trolls worked together to make this particular diary the mess that it is.

                      Your naive (dishonest?) calls for unity and such defy that very basic reality.

                      Here is something you said:

                      Are we stooping to the level of our opponents? We can't handle a little dissention within our ranks without resorting to exiling the offending party?

                      If you really, honestly, believe that this diary represents what you say it does, then you are not very aware.

                      OTOH, if you're just helping with the smear job, then it makes perfect sense.

                      In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                      by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 09:18:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are paranoid (4.00)
                        SFW if it is some Freeper trying to start some shit? It still doesn't justify you turning into the cops. Go ahead and check out my "credentials". Do I have your permission to be here? Seriously. "Smear". Cindy knows about smear. tomcurry's post (and yes, I've never heard of this guy before tonight) is far, far from the worst she's heard.

                        I've taken a look at your profile and posts. You seemed to be obsessed with "trolls". The only diary you've written has to do with "troll rating". What is that?

                        We're all grownups. We can handle a little disinformation (if it was indeed that, with malicious intent) without losing our religion. If that's their tactics, then so what? Unlike most of them, our ideology has been hard fought for.

                        As far as what tomcurry wrote, other than the dubious, unsubstantiated claim about the permit, and the fact that I never defended what he said notwithstanding, what's the big deal? Plenty of people have plenty of problems with the way the anti-war movement has come together (or failed to come together) in the past couple of years.
                        That doesn't make them a Rush Limbaugh fan.

                        And don't get this confused with "smear". It's called debate. And from the looks of this thread, we here at Kos could stand to engage in it more often...

                        Forget worrying about "Bushies" in disguise. Let's debate them face to face, so we can all be reminded that we have more in common than this petty shit that seperates us.  

                        •  Sorry dude (4.00)
                          I don't see it that way at all.

                          In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                          by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 10:15:08 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Like I said before... (none)
                            Agree to disagree. But back to my original intent in all of this...let's stop the bickering! A truce to all the liberals on this board. Let's get back to the business at hand...beating those damned neocons.
                          •  You don't understand (3.40)
                            This diary was infested with trolls. This is not liberals fighting amongst themselves. This is trolls instigating fights. That's what they do. Now, I hope you figure that out.

                            Listen, the trolls are the neocons. And you know what else? You've been told that multiple times on this thread, and you have not modified your message to take this into account at all.

                            AFAIK, you're carrying the trolls' water.

                            In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                            by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 10:53:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay, fuck unity (none)
                            Offered good faith truce. Now you're just pissing me off.

                            "Listen, the trolls are the neocons. And you know what else? You've been told that multiple times on this thread, and you have not modified your message to take this into account at all."

                            Please refer to my response a couple of posts up. Who gives a shit? "Modified my response"? You are really a piece of work, ready for the KGB of old.

                            You can't win a debate without using the "T" word can you? Have you grown so childish and intellectually lazy that you need to ban everybody that comes along who tries to stir up some shit? I say, to quote Dubya, "Bring it on!"

                            Our ideas have to be better than theirs. Don't you get that? I don't care if this guy is or is not "a troll". It doesn't matter. The secret police tactics of some of you on this board piss me off way more than some neocon jackass looking to agitate us (however poorly).

                            Where do you draw the line? Please quit the fascist tactics. The fact that there are people like you in the leftwing is really scaring the shit out of me.

                            As a matter of fact, if I wanted to scare people off of being a liberal, I'd use you as an illustration of every stereotype about the "Commie Left" David Horowitz and his whacko ilk constantly perpetuate about the modern liberal movement.

                            STOP IT! Please stop using the word "troll"...We are not for censorship! That is not and will never be a progressive, liberal value.

                            ...shit..."instigating fights" a liberal I'd expect you to be used to that by now. People are always instigating fights with us. Why be scared of it?

                          •  I am used to it (none)
                            And that was an excellent rant. High on the hyperbole, but an excellent rant.

                            In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                            by yet another liberal on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 12:21:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  you're a sanctimonious moron (3.00)
                          and judging by your high user number (and also notice bob cobb is the only one uprating you here), you're also quite inexperienced here; and your only contribution seems the defense of rightwing trolls being able to hijack threads, (sometimes) pretend to be democrats and spread unsubstantiated smears of important people in our movement, and spew ad-homindem venom in all directions (in the name of UNITY for chissakes!!!). maybe you should go watch foxnews instead of come here.

                          but just for shits and giggles, why don't you tell me what the best way to debate this face to face?:

                          You're a cunt! (0.21 / 19)

                          That should get you self-rightous piece of shits all up in arms.  Fuck off!

                          by bobb cobb on Mon Sep 26th, 2005 at 17:58:58 PDT

                          yet you keep repeating the same cliched bullshit over and over. either your ego has run away with your brain, or you are completely incapable of processing new information that doesn't fit your black and white world view about people being able to say ANYthing they want ANYwhere and ANYTime they want. which of course is a mockery of the concept of free speech and all the other laws that limit it (hate speech, inciting violence, threats, endangering public welfare, slander, libel, etc). absolutists are totalitarians.


                          Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

                          by SonofFunk on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 05:43:32 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

    •  operation ivy (4.00)
      There's a war going down between my brothers tonight,
      I don't want no war going down, going down tonight.

      Stop this war
      Stop this war

      Civilization? Ha! I call it as I see it.
      I call it bullshit, you know, I still cannot believe it
      Our evolution now has gone the way of hate
      A world evolved resolved in this stupid fate

      Stop this war
      Stop this war

      All so different yeah, I say we're all the same
      All caught, you know, in the division game.
      Self destruction fast impending like a bullet.
      No one can stop it, once it's fired, no one can control it.

      Stop this war
      Stop this war

      A final word, wait it's not a call to action
      We ain't no sect, no, this ain't no fucking faction.
      Unity, unity, unity you've heard it all before.
      This time it's not exclusive - we want to stop a war.

      Stop this war
      Stop this war

      Ain't nothing wrong with another unity song
      Ain't nothing wrong with another unity song
      Ain't nothing wrong
      Ain't nothing wrong
      Ain't nothing wrong
      Ain't nothing wrong with a unity song

      Stop this war
      Stop this war

      Unity, as one stand together
      Unity, evolution's gonna come

      You are a catastrophe that walks like a man. -- Bill Maher on Shrubya.

      by missreporter on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:41:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You know when these protests will get serious? (3.87)
    They'll get serious when there are tangible costs to the war.  

    I'm not saying that there aren't costs to the war.  There are.  We shouldn't have gone, it's a mess, and it'll be a mess.  The whole entire thing is just disgraceful.

    In Ann Arbor (home of the University of Michigan with tens of thousands of students) a town of about 100,000, 500 anti-war protesters showed up.  I kept asking myself, why?  Why would only 500 people show up?  Then I realized--the vast majority of people at the U of M or in Ann Arbor aren't directly affected.  And by that I mean--they aren't going to serve in the war, their kids or nieces and nephews or dads or moms aren't either.  And neither am I.   And therefore it's difficult to get motivated.  I'm not saying what's right or what's wrong--just trying to call it as I see it.

    If we had a draft and those college kids were getting called up to serve--you'd better believe they (and their parents) would be protesting.  It would be about life and death.  

    How do we create the immediacy of the problems to people who aren't directly affected?  Especially in this age where it's really hard to get some Americans to care about other Americans?

    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

    by Matt in AA on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:17:35 PM PDT

    •  Yup (4.00)
      This is a war designed to affect the least amount of Americans as possible.  The National Guard and "back-door" drafts are fueling it.

      The war is a deadly blunder.  But sadly, the only Americans paying for it are our soldiers.  Bush wants to keep handing out pork to to wealthy while working our soldiers to death.

      •  And then the soldiers come home . . . (none)
        and our government doesn't exactly treat them with respect.  

        Why again is Extreme Makeover:  Home Edition building homes and giving new limbs to veterans?  

        It's frustrating as hell because everything this administration does (well, virtually everything) is a sick political calculation.  

        I guess the question we should be asking ourselves is, how do we make it important to people who aren't directly affected?  Are we doing that?  Can we do that?    

        I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

        by Matt in AA on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:29:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Lord (3.70)
    Why don't you and your colleagues relocate to an island somewhere far, far away. You can take Mr Bush with you as your exalted leader. He'd never know the difference anyway. Wahington, island, same bubble. And since you're so fond of aggression, you could divide into teams a la Survivor and have at it. Knock yourselves out. Literally.
  •  Please stop with your juvenile recipies (1.47)
    ...and your calls that I am some sort of stealth war lover.

    I am trying to sort through these posts and make a valid response to the people who are actually adressing the point I was trying to address.

    I know I didn't put much time into thinking out my diary very clearly and mostly just vomitted raw emotion into the textbox, but I would appreciate that you refrain from making worthless comments if you have nothing constructive to say at all.

    •  You wrote: (4.00)
      "Cindy and her fellow self-righteous "resisters" were offered a permit to protest in the exact spot they did and refused it.

      "Furthermore, their organization had been in contact with the police force to communicate what they were planning to do and express that they wished for there to be some arrests."

      Substantiate it, retract it, or be recognized as a troll.

    •  Oof... (4.00)
      Ok. You should've divided this comment into a number of paragraphs, cause maybe then I would've gotten confused and not caught this:
      I know I didn't put much time into thinking out my diary very clearly and mostly just vomitted raw emotion into the textbox
      Ok, honest enough. But then you say
      but I would appreciate that you refrain from making worthless comments if you have nothing constructive to say at all.
      What's good for the provocateur is good for the reactionary.

    •  Apologies (4.00)
      But you must understand that when someone screams in your ear the natural reaction is to scream back, not say, gee, I am sorry..could you repeat what you said more calmly so that I may discern your point of view and offer somthing constructive?

      I got annoyed because after watching the whole unfold,your diary seemd misplaced, whatever capsule of truth that threaded through it.  Cindy Sheehan, to me is like The Daily Show..Try as people might to pigeon-hole her as a crazy liberal, the fact remains, she is not a pundit, a politician, nor a liberally biased news source;  She is just a woman doing what she feels is right and is going about it the way she wants to..and if the anti-war movement stages a protest..fine.  If its stagey..fine..There is enough reality going on in the world..Enough erosion of democracy, enough war and bloodshed, enough obtuse and ignorant goverment, enough false pius SOB's running the show, the airwaves and world, that I am FINE with some cheesy camera mugging.  Because when 100,000 people take the time out of their lives to do this protest because they feel that strongly, because the media nearly turned a deaf ear to it ONCE AGAIN...Criticism of our side at this stage of the game does not sit well with me at all...So I take back my "fuck you"..I am sorry for that..but in place of it, I say shut up.."Please"..but shut up, seriosly..

    •  Okay, I Gave This a Four... (4.00) response to the reactionaries here.

      Listen, people, we need dialogue here, not screaming.  Tom, I think you did overreact, I think you didn't think out your position, I think you did open mouth before engaging brain.  But I also think (oooh, psychobabble alert!) your feelings are valid.

      There are a few here who cannot tolerate diverse opinions; I thought intolerance is one of the values we all despise.

      We aren't showing a very strong 'critical thinking' ability here, either.

      So there.  I'm Jesus.  You're the prostitute.  Or something.  I think you're getting a raw deal from some here, and I'm getting beaten up for it, too.  Aisch!

      See what you did tomcurry?  All hell just broke loose.

    •  Recipe just for you: Whine & Cheese (4.00)
      Republican Whine & Cheese

      Organize fundraiser for Senator.

      Invite 300 associates and cronies at $5,000 each.
      Write off all organizational, supply, labor, and service costs, including your own salary at $575 an hour, against non-profit agency.

      Pressure employees to donate $1000 each without benefit of attending event.  Fire the three communist crybabies who refuse to pony up.

      Serve Livermore Valley swill with "Napa Estate" label, grown on supporter's private vinyard.

      Accompany with high-priced call girls for all Pioneers.

      Have former middle-class waiters who used to have jobs that paid a living wage serve you, and enjoy.

      Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

      by madhaus on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 07:12:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can't help but wonder, (4.00)
    why the MSM is so eager to make Cindy the focus of the antiwar movement.

    They sold us (and I include myself, regretably) this shit with a bunch of crap about mushroom clouds. They knew better than to believe it. By failing to seriously question it, we failed to seriously question it.

    I'm suspicious of anyone the MSM makes "famous" or presents as a representative "the people".

    Don't want to be too cyncical, but I have an uneasy feeling about all of this.

    Are we sure this is the best we can do?

    "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

    by tricky dick on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:27:31 PM PDT

    •  But then again (none)
      I guess it's good theatre.

      I really don't know. I'm just a cynical guy, I can't help it.

      Still, I do know one thing...

      Cindy drives all my right wing buddies CRAZY!!!

      They won't admit it, but all their talk about how "she is making a fool of herself" is probably just a smokescreen. They really are bothered by her.

      I don't know, maybe she found a way to fool the MSM. Like a double agent or something. Now that would be cynical.

      "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

      by tricky dick on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:34:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What does compare? (4.00)
    You said: "This was no refusing to move to the back of the bus and frankly was a disgrace and dishonor to the men and women who have participated in such legitimate struggles in our nation's history."

    Does losing a son count for anything? I would think that's about as much sacrifice as any one of us could stand. When you've made the same sacrifice, get back to us about what is appropriate protest behavior and what is not.

    Thanks in advance.

    "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war."

    by RonV on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:32:20 PM PDT

  •  I've recommended as well (4.00)
    because I believe in hearing from ALL sides of the spectrum. No matter how good, or in this case bad, the diarist should still have a chance to be heard. And I would like for more people to read this crap before it gets all the way to the bottom of the page, or completly off of it.

    To the diarist though, I disagree, and agree with you.

  •  Tomcurry wrote: (3.66)
    "Cindy and her fellow self-righteous "resisters" were offered a permit to protest in the exact spot they did and refused it.

    "Furthermore, their organization had been in contact with the police force to communicate what they were planning to do and express that they wished for there to be some arrests."

    Substantiate, retract, or be known as a troll.

    I wrote this a little upthread as a reply to a comment of Tom's that has since disappeared, taking mine with it...?  I have TU status so that's not why.

  •  What makes you think I'm a warmonger troll? (1.18)
    Because I question the strategy of the anti-war movement than in 3 years has accomplished....nothing?
    •  Substantiate, retract, or be known as a troll n/t (3.40)
    •  Nothing? (4.00)
      Seems to me public opinion has turned from 75% favorable to 60+% unfavorable in less than 2 years.
    •  NOW I Say (4.00)
      Fuck you..

      Ar you keeping score on an anit-war movemnet that took three years to get traction? And using an anti-war movement(clearly your pet anti war movement) that forty years ago required 30,000 dead americans, millions of vietnamese dead, six years in-country and an evntual pullout with nothing gained except 55,000 dead soliders and a scar on the psyche of an entire generation..
      what a bunch of assholes this current anti-war movemnet is!  Getting going before we get to 5,000 us deaths..theres no flair.  No creative chants! no fire hoses! These jerks don't know!w to party!! fuuuuuuck yoooooouuuu.!

      Now I know you are a troll, I was willing to give you the beneift of the doubt but man, you need a new hobby

      •  Three years to get traction? (none)
        You have to be kidding me. There were marches before the war. I was in London in February 2003 and a million people marched....

        How many marched this past weekend, if anything, we are losing traction.

        •  ummm (none)
          were the marches before the war bigger than this (~300k)? where's your evidence we're "losing traction"? and for that matter that a MILLION protested in london?

          Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

          by SonofFunk on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:04:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  STP (none)
          Standard Trolling Procedure for daisycolorado (under this or his other usernames): posting defeatist drivel while using the 'we' pronoun...

          Anti-war sentiment has been picking up quite strongly, which is the traction that really matters. It's stunning that without any leading politician coming out against the war, and with a compliant 'embedded' media, polls are now 60% against.

          This was the largest demonstration is over two years, in spite of being miserably organized. We (and I don't think that includes you) have gained a tremendous political high ground. With these numbers and the stench or cronyism and corruption, if real leadership finally shows up for the opposition the Bush Republicans will be politically dead in spite of their choke-hold on the media.

  •  oh jesus fuck (4.00)
    a whopping 8 comments, 6 diaries, and 1 dkos month under the belt...shall we do the math?
  •  The one point that matters... (none)
    ...time to turn up the heat.

    I applaud Cindy Sheehan, but the diarist's main point -- that it's time to grow a set and make some real sacrifices, cause some real disruption -- is well taken.  Marching around with signs makes everybody feel good, but nobody's going to listen to us until we hold somebody's nuts to the fire in a real way.

    The big question is why weren't there 10,000 people like the guy who jumped the White House fence?  Bet he's in some real trouble and nobody even knows his name.  

    In every stage of these Oppressions...: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury." DoI, TJ

    by ChuckLin on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:54:27 PM PDT

    •  If that's what you want then (2.66)
      when you write a diary you don't trash the only people out there doing something, and you certainly don't ask Cindy Sheehan to go violent on everyone. She's not our sacrificial lamb now is she?
  •  The Photo... (4.00)
    I've got no problem with taking an arrest to make a point.

    But the smile's all wrong. Go for the look of steely determination

    No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

    by ben masel on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:55:56 PM PDT

    •  I couldn't agree more (none)
      Which was why I reocmmended this diary, because we never see diaries on the recommended list that go against the talking points for all the talk that this community tolerates all points of view. I don't agree with everything the diarist wrote, (and would like to see a link if possible that they refused a permit) but yes, her smiling like that while being arrested looks like a PR stunt to me instead of an act of civil disobedience. I know MLK Jr. never looked like that when he was arrested. It really just surprised me based on the seriousness and tears she and all exhibited in Crawford. That should have been the mood of this today.

      "No matter how hard the loss, defeat might serve as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." Al Gore

      by Patriot for Al Gore on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 08:12:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended for Purposes of Discussion (4.00)
    Not because I agree.

    Cindy Sheehan can do any damned thing she pleases.  She's a citizen.  She's got an opinion. She's got spirit.  She's doing what she has to do. And she's got the First Amendment on her side. As do you Tomcurry.  And I am glad for it.

    We all know the contempt that this Administration holds toward free speech.  The Patriot Act, free speech zones and the mass arrests during the conventions, smear campaigns...all meant to intimidate those with an opinion from raising their voices.  To "accept" a permit would be to volunteer to be leashed.  

    The smile on her face at any moment can not be held against her.  I know if I had lost my son as she did, I would be hard pressed to imagine an opportunity to smile.  So, good for her.  Good for her.  

    I was too young to remember, but have read alot about the civil unrest and protesting of the 60s that turned so sourly against the peace movement, and "cast" the left in a particularly bad light.  Whether it was the fault of agent provacateurs, media focus, political operatives or a combination doesn't matter.  The point is that, to this day, those days are still so fixating for the Right.  It's a lot more difficult to make the movement backfire when a primary symbol is a mother who lost her boy.  That resonates in a way that few can deny, and any Rightie that wants to argue about the validity of her protest can not easily stand up to the PLAIN SIMPLE FACT:  her son was stolen from her for a lie.  

    People used to have their children taken from them all the time in our nation's history.  They were called slaves.

    If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague

    by SnyperKitty on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:58:58 PM PDT

  •  This thread (4.00)
    and others who are all worried about ANSWER are obvious examples of some people on the left's utter lack of confidence in their beliefs. They have been so cowed by the Right that they won't do anything for fear of upsetting Drudge.
    They are afraid that every step may be percieved as a stumble, and are paralyzed with fear. They see everything the left does as a potential liability.
    What a bunch of chickenshits.
    Get over it, whiners.
    -Cindy's doing great work.
    -The rally in DC was a huge success.
    -Bush's popularity is plummeting.
    -The War is losing support.
    -The GOP is facing an ever-burgeoning shit-pile of scandals.
    -The 06 elections could be a complete turnaround.

    Yet some of you are terrified about negative media coverage.

    •  Critics can be wrong (none)
      but don't discourage dissent outright.  People are concerned with the direction the movement has taken since it started gaining momentum.  ANSWER is fucked up and we should be VERY careful not to give them any more prominence.  They do a shitty PR job, at the very least.  I was pissed watching their speakers on C-Span and I've had a bad attitude for the past few days because of it.  In fact, I had feelings similar to the diarist until I read a comment analyzing Sheehan's protest as contrived, yet effective because she got news coverage.  Now, I find it hard to imagine being reassured about ANSWER.  I've read some comments throughout Kos saying that they work their asses to put on this production, and yeah, they're nuts, but they're a necessary evil.  I don't buy it.  If a million people want t oshow up in Washington, we don't need ANSWER babystting us.  We're adults.  DC will deal.  And if they don't, then it's pure civil disobedience in great numbers.  Permits or not.  We don't need a stage.  We'll bring walkmen and tune to Air America.  Or whatever.  We don't need anything except to show up.
      •  Shitty PR job??? (4.00)
        They did better than anyone else. I don't see anyone else getting 100-300 thousand people together. Apparently we do need ANSWER to babysit us.
        If your problem is with ANSWER's positions, then complain to them, not the people who marched.
        But don't complain about their demonstration. They let anyone else do what they wanted. Other voices besides ANSWER's were allowed to speak and participate.
        But apparently you want to muzzle ANSWER.
        Why? Are you afraid of being associated with "freaks"? Are you afraid of what the SCLM will think?
        If so, I would suggest you stop worrying about ANSWER and get on with more important issues.
    •  SO when is the impeachment? (none)

      "No matter how hard the loss, defeat might serve as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." Al Gore

      by Patriot for Al Gore on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 07:48:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Holy Fuck (4.00)
    I need a shower after wading through that muck.
  •  Tom, I agree with Karen - post your proof (4.00)
    Tom, you said the following:

    "Cindy and her fellow self-righteous "resisters" were offered a permit to protest in the exact spot they did and refused it."

    "Furthermore, their organization had been in contact with the police force to communicate what they were planning to do and express that they wished for there to be some arrests."

    Please post a link to where you got this information, otherwise I'll consider you a disinfo artist for now on...and I just love chopping disinfo artists into little pieces and flushing them down the toilet where they belong.


  •  My take (none)
    As much as I'm upset to see the direction the anti-war movement has taken, I have to restrain my criticism because neither Democrats, nor Republicans, nor less radical groups have put forth strong, organized opposition to the war.

    I respectfully disagree with Cindy Sheehan, but the Party has made her their voice through their silence. Whose fault is that?

    Think Blue. 11/04/2008.

    by blueshades on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 06:41:15 PM PDT

  •  What I find disgraceful (4.00)
    is a lot of this thread.  There should be room for discussion of the issues here.  Granted the diarist did not post proof or links, but without analysis and some criticism things just don't improve, they stay the same.  Suppose the peace movement does have room for improvement, without someone pointing it out ( even if it is painful to hear and maddening) then it just stays the same, doesn't grow, and follows the wrong path if it is on one.  

    We always should have room for discussion instead of immediately zeroeing out everything that offends or is in disagreement.  Of course their are some things that are so disagreeable they are unmistakable, and I'm not naming names(Bob).

    As for my thoughts, I think that the peace movement has grown immensely this summer, and let's face it Cindy has been a big reason why, but it is also the time and the circumstances and it is coming of age.  Things are getting ripe.  It isn't what it should be, though.  However, Cindy did give the media something to hold onto and a point to focus on.  Otherwise, they wouldn't know what to do with themselves and would be wondering around in the darkness without something to focus on.

    It is a mistake for Cindy to grin while being arrested though.  Her whole approach today and the coverage she got including the supposed light heartedness she exhibited did harm and set her back.  That is my opinion.

    •  It's a good opinion, (4.00)
      well said, not hateful, and productive. The diarist was not. It sparked with many of us. I didn't troll him though but I sure in the hell didn't like his suggestion that we need to get more violent to make points in this protest. That's what he wanted to see today. Can you imagine Cindy Sheehan being peppered sprayed, slammed down to the ground and handcuffed so that all of us could finally feel like we're doing something. I defend all points of view that aren't done in a hateful, slam em down format. And if I don't agree I can say so or ignore it. But this diary starts off so disrespectfull that recipes are flying.
      •  ... there are times .. (4.00)
        .. when getting slammed to the ground, getting pepper sprayed and batoned are required.

        I don't think we are there yet.
        I don't think trashing the neighborhood is required.

        I do think that the structure of discussing in the press what options are available to get our people out of Iraq is sadly lacking.

        We need a political leader to stand up and present some ideas.

        Paul Wellstone, where are you?

        "I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams.

        by shpilk on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 08:07:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I interpret her grin as defiance (4.00)
    ...or maybe embarrassment?  Or maybe she just wanted to show she's not afraid?  Or perhaps genuine happiness that the plan was going off -- you can't blame her for feeling that.  Not sure.  I would have preferred a different expression myself.

    But Cindy is not an actress.

  •  You lied just now when you said you posted a link (4.00)
    Tom, you said "Cindy and her fellow self-righteous "resisters" were offered a permit to protest in the exact spot they did and refused it."

    You also said "Furthermore, their organization had been in contact with the police force to communicate what they were planning to do and express that they wished for there to be some arrests. What a joke."

    Your statements were not matter-of-opinion comments - they were black-and-white statements, uttered as fact...true or false, thus you're a truth-teller or a disinfo freak.

    I asked you to post a link to back these statements up.  Instead of posting a link, you lied by saying you "already did."

    Things aren't looking too bright for you right now.  I noticed your previous diary was about a supposed large explosion in Phoenix - which turned out to be nothing more than a missile launch from Vandenberg AFB.

    Post the link or retract.


    Bush can't even spell Iraq, let alone find it on a map.

    by Bozos Rnot4 Bush on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 07:16:44 PM PDT

  •  What would Tom Curry do ?? (4.00)
    Tom, before you get on the high horse and make pronouncements about what you think is 'disrespect for the anti-war movement', drop us all a bomb and tell us what we'all should do.

    Lennon said it, a lifetime ago:
    applies here - BIGTIME:

    "You say you've got a real solution
    Well, you know
    We'd all love to see the plan"

    I understand the frustration, and I see the disenchancement with the theatre - but let's hear what Tom Curry would do.


    Kossacks - freedom to express is rudimentary to what we all hold so dear; I get a creepy crawlies from people who demand Tom pull down his post.

    Question, and hold accountable where required. Censorship is the refuge of beyond last resort - we should not be using it here,  unless there are terrible ad homs.

    I don't see where Tom was doing that here.

    "I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams.

    by shpilk on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 07:48:22 PM PDT

    •  .. use this as an opportunity (none)
      I say let's use Tom's disenchantment as an opportunity ..

      It's not unreasonable to ask, and do a post-mortem on the event itself. Tom's biggest 'crime' was the methodology he used. And we are all waiting for ideas from Tom {and everyone else} as how the protest could have been better, more effective.  

      Cindy Sheehan has done a great job at igniting the   flare. More can be done, and the question MUST be asked: is press attention that Cindy is getting {not that I begrudge any of it, mind you}
      resulting in other efforts being shortchanged?


      And now, I know for sure that you folks are going to kill me. I am not in favor of yanking our forces out of Iraq right away: I am ambivalent about some opinions about pulling out our troops immediately - I think the situation needs to be stabilized more before let down the Iraqi people again. We already did that once thanks to GHWB.

      I have my own set of solutions about what to do in Iraq .. but this thread is not about me

      "I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams.

      by shpilk on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 08:02:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My idea would be to poll (none)
        all the major groups to ask in general consensus who'd they like to lead the protest. Say it's Move-on, then decide who the speakers will be that directly relate to the event. Then I would get each participating group to hand out the emails from Move-on, so that the message stays pure without dilution from the other groups. I'd also make it clear that this protest is strictly about the cause and encourage all groups to add to that cause. What happens after that is democracy in action and shouldn't be controlled. As far as violent action I would never as a leader of a group encourage people to take that path. It's not leadership. As to the individual, well, I'm one of those that would get arrested for being where I'm not suppossed to be. It's just a skeleton layout, but for future events we could try to gather a concensus for who seems acceptable to run the show.
    •  Jesus Friggin Christ (2.50)
      "Kossacks - freedom to express is rudimentary to what we all hold so dear; I get a creepy crawlies from people who demand Tom pull down his post.

      Question, and hold accountable where required. Censorship is the refuge of beyond last resort - we should not be using it here,  unless there are terrible ad homs."

      Seriously. What is this site coming to? Hunting out offending parties? A purge? Someone please remind some of these folks what being a liberal is all about. Just a small reminder...WE AREN'T THE FASCISTS!

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